Nacole:
I haven’t properly been able to reconcile my feelings because it’s not good and bad, good and bad, good and bad. It’s been all like bad, devastating, bad, devastating, bad. And it’s like, you know, even when I talk to just nurses, they’re like, I’m over it.
Nacole:
That’s a clip from my recent chat with Jackie O’Halloran, who we spoke to earlier this season. And as you can tell, this conversation was pretty intense. Now, remember Jackie earned the respect of nurses across the country when she stood up to her hospital administrators during the early days of COVID. She struck a nerve talking about systemic issues that impact us all. And you know how hard it is to vocalize nursing concerns, let alone on a public platform. Much respect, Jackie. So she was the perfect person to bring back for a conversation about how nurses are feeling going into 2021 – burned out, devastated and like I said in this interview just plain over it. We flipped the script with this one and had Jackie asked the questions. She asked me about COVID racial dynamics and about gender bias. These were tough conversations for sure, but ones that were definitely worth having, because if we don’t sound the alarm now about the issues that are driving so many of us out of the nursing profession, we’re going to be facing a mass exodus with some communities seeing this right now. We have to talk about what’s going on before we lose more good nurses. Talking isn’t a solution, but it is start.
Nacole:
My name is Nacole Riccaboni. I’m a critical care nurse working in Florida and your host for Shift Talk. This podcast is brought to you by Shift, a new community for nurses ready to make a change. Shift is sponsored by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Follow us on Instagram at shiftnursing and for more stories and real talk about nursing, head over to shiftnursing.com. Thanks for tuning in to this very special bonus episode and for supporting me as I get a little vulnerable and honest with you all and let Jackie interview me. Now, I’m passing the mic to Jackie to dig right in.
Jackie:
Okay, Nacole. So I’m super excited to connect with you today and jump back into things. Just as a little reminder to our listeners, I am from the North of Boston and I have been a nurse for about 10 years and I work on a cardiac unit. And I know we have very differing specialties, Nacole, so if you want to take the stage.
Nacole:
Yes. Well, my name is Nacole Riccaboni. I am an acute care nurse practitioner in central Florida. I’m born and raised in Kissimmee, Florida. I bleed Florida. I love it. It’s unique. And it has a very interesting community. I have an MBA and a master’s degree in science. I’m currently working on doctorate now. I’m one of those 40 year old students wearing the backpack on campus. I know it’s going to be a long journey, but I’m almost done. And I work in night shifts. So my experience is unique in that my husband is the one that takes care of the kids during the day, and he cooks amazing meals. And I’m the one sleeping with like blackout curtains. And the kids are crying in the background because I am dead to the world during the daytime. And then at night I’m lively and wide awake. So I’m the neighbor vacuuming at one o’clock in the morning annoying my neighbors. Cause that’s when I come alive.
Jackie:
You say you’re busy is a bit of an understatement. I would say you’re busy in your home life and I’m sure that you’re busy at work.
Nacole:
Oh, for sure. I do all the ICU within our organization. So I bounced around a lot and just acclimating to COVID and non-COVID units and cardiac and medical surgical. So kind of a Jack of All Trades.
Jackie:
I would say so. So up here in Massachusetts, we had a pretty quiet summer, but it sounds like Florida has been heating up pretty much since we started this pandemic.
Nacole:
Oh yeah. Florida got a couple of waves. You know, since a lot of people come down here to vacation and they interact, you know, with theme parks down here and visit family members, we get a lot of transient people who are here and then they get sick. And they’re kind of stuck here on top of the general people who were kind of planted here. So it’s a unique blend of residents getting sick and kind of, transition people getting sick. And you know, our community is only managed to handle a certain amount of people. So when a lot of people from different states flooded because they want to go on trips and vacations and things like that,t definitely, we definitely see the overwhelming kind of situations within our hospital settings.
Jackie:
So I want to bring up an Instagram post that you made about working at Red Lobster.
Nacole:
Oh my God. Okay. First of all, I worked at Red Lobster, like all high school. And then when I started at community college, that was my jam. Okay. I made the biscuits. I had a whole process. I still have scars on my forearms from like putting them in the oven wrong and burning my arms. I did that for like five years. I loved that job. And I remember having a bad day one day and I was like, maybe I should just go back to that. Like, this is emotionally overwhelming. Like, do I want to keep doing this? Because it’s just, you’re so overwhelmed.
Jackie:
I always worked in restaurants. I would love to go back.
Nacole:
Did you really? Every time I talk to a nurse, they’re always like, Oh yeah, I was like a bartender or a server for like two years.
Jackie:
I mean, it’s kind of the same stuff.
Nacole:
Yeah. Still serving people.
Jackie:
People take their health and their food very seriously.
Nacole:
Very, very seriously. You know, we’re technically quote unquote still serving the peoples. So I guess, but yeah, I worked there for a long time and it was like one shift. I was just like, you know, it’s good to have dreams, but sometimes it’s like, this might be too much for me.
Jackie:
Sometimes it can be overrated.
Nacole:
You know, I want to work at like Forever 21. I’m just ringing clothes up. I don’t have any emotional like attachments to anything. I just want to do this job and be in and be out because you know how emotionally draining nursing is.
Jackie:
So draining.
Nacole:
And then I come home and my husband’s like, Hey, you want to talk? And I’m like, no, I really I’m sorry. I don’t want to talk.
Jackie:
I want to sit in a dark room.
Nacole:
Can we just not talk for like three hours until I get reset emotionally, please?
Jackie:
And speaking of super sick patients, you know, I worked yesterday and we sent someone to the ICU and it was very hectic. You know, it’s scary, you know, we’re dealing with providers and an RT and, and we finally sent them off to the unit and one of the nurses looked at me and she was like, I’d like to go work at Trader Joe’s. I think that’s where I want to work.
Nacole:
And everyone that works there’s so happy and it’s just like…
Jackie:
They got their Hawaiian shirts.
Nacole:
You know, we have our good days, but with COVID, it’s been nothing but bad days. So I haven’t properly been able to reconcile my feelings because it’s not good and bad, good and bad, good and bad. It’s been all like bad, devastating, bad, devastating, bad. And it’s like, you know…
Jackie:
And you get accustomed to the bad and the bad it’s almost tolerable. It’s good. And the burnout, it’s tough because you’re just dealing with that level of bad.
Nacole:
And it’s tough. And it’s like, my job is, I’m the one that has to call the families at night. So I have to wake them up. First of all, I got to give them bad news. I have to be a part of that quote unquote emotional show that happens. So it’s just draining to always be a part of someone’s worst experience of their entire life. And they have to make the hardest decision of their entire life. And I’ve been doing that almost every shift for like five months now.
Jackie:
For sure.
Nacole:
So it’s just like just being a part of that emotional process and always being giving bad news. It kind of weighs on you. And that’s why my husband was like, Hey, you want to go out? And I’m like, no, I don’t want to leave my house. I’ve been involved in too many marriages that aren’t marriages anymore, too many, you know, family members expiring via Google chat or like videos. I am over the human experience. I just want to sit in my house and eat pizza and watch TV.
Jackie:
Do you think that there’ll be any kind of long-term effects for nurses in terms of burnout because we’ve been dealing with this now for eight months?
Nacole:
I think so. I mean, even when I talk to just nurses, they’re like, I’m over it. Like I’m over it and not over in the moment. Cause you know, we all say stuff we don’t mean in the moment, you know. You just say stuff to kind of burn it off, but people are like, I’m going to do this one more year and I’m done. Like they’re over just the profession in general, they’re over the demands, they’re over the work requirements. And I feel like even once COVID is done, there’s going to be some type of mass exit regarding the nursing in general, which is already short anyway.
Jackie:
Exactly. How do we combat that? I’m not sure.
Nacole:
And instead of people working for years and years and years, like you’ve just cut it in half. They’ve experienced maybe five years of nursing in like a five month period. And they’re just over it
Jackie:
Completely. And I’ve talked to new grads who, you know, they’re new grads, they’re new. And they’ve been like, I don’t feel like a new grad. I feel like a veteran nurse because I worked through COVID and I just think the long-term effects of it are going to be very damaging to healthcare and to nursing in general.
Nacole:
For sure, because we’re already short.
Jackie:
So Nacole comparing the different surges that Florida has seen, do you feel more or less supported by your employer? How have those changes been seen?
Nacole:
I feel more supported. I think when the first wave hit, our organization kind of hit the ground running. We’ve never run out of PPE. That has never been a concern. My son ended up somehow cutting up my respirator and I was freaked out cause I had to work the next day. And then my administrative sent me one the next day. It wasn’t like it was a problem or anything. The nurses and the adjunct staff always have PPE. That’s never been a problem. And I get consistent communication with what’s required of me in terms of COVID and the PPE changing on a daily basis. That’s why, when I hear stories about people running out of PPE, I feel so bad cause I cannot relate. I’ve never had that problem. We have really strict restrictions on who comes back to work when, where and why. And if you know, you even have a fever, you can’t come in and there’s all these weird restrictions on how many visitors can come in. So my perspective is based on, Oh, I don’t have any problems as far as my organization, but I could see how other organizations might not be that restrictive, but I just happen to work at a really awesome place.
Jackie:
Yeah. That sounds, that sounds amazing. And I find it so interesting how Florida doesn’t really have any firm kind of mandates or rules as far as the pandemic is concerned. Yet it sounds like hospital administration has really taken over and come together and has created kind of rules and protocols to support the staff. So the juxtaposition is kind of interesting,
Nacole:
Very interesting because you would, you know, there’s no state mandates and I hear the governor is saying this and saying that, and then I’m like, what is happening? And then I’ll get an email from our like, CEO and he’ll have a completely opposite thought process. And it’s like, well, I trust my organization. They’re advocating for me. They’re doing what’s right. But statewide it’s, it’s a bit of a dumpster fire, you know, with that whole thing.
Jackie:
To put it lightly.
Nacole:
There are people protesting about wearing mask and then people spitting on each other and fighting and it’s just like, you know, guys, we’re all adults here. It’s getting a little out of hand. When I go to work, I feel safe. I feel unsafe when I leave work. Isn’t that weird?
Jackie:
And it seems like healthcare, at least in Florida, has really picked up the slack.
Nacole:
Oh for sure. Oh, yes. For sure. I mean, my organization even built those emergency tents for overflow. At the time we didn’t need them, but they were very prepared and very, very ready.
Jackie:
That’s awesome. Cause I know it’s not, it’s definitely different in different parts of the country.
Nacole:
Oh for sure. Yeah. Cause when you see the news, you’re like, what do you mean? Like you guys are wearing the same PPE from a month ago? And I was like, Oh my God, can you even do that? Like I heard somebody. I was like, Oh, you were in the same mask for like a month. Like seriously, are you joking? And I’m like, no, seriously, I’ve been wearing this one mask for a month. I’m like, it looks like worn out. Is it even safe?
Jackie:
Probably not. I remember at the very beginning, we, there was a hospital around me that they didn’t even have gowns. They were using johnnies, patient gowns. It just was terrifying.
Nacole:
Oh my gosh.
Jackie:
So Nacole, just to transition a little bit, I obviously listened to all the episodes this season and I was really impacted by how you described your experiences as a patient and a black woman. Like how you were treated when you gave birth to your son. So if we could kind of touch a little bit on this.
Nacole:
Sure. I gave birth during the pandemic in April and you know, you’re pregnant. This is my second kid. I know what to expect. I’m not like out of the loop when it comes to what’s going to happen when where and why but this time it was definitely not even a little, a lot different. When I had my second son, so my husband wasn’t allowed back there. And that was kind of the first hiccup because you know, when you’re delivering a baby, you want your spouse there with you. And I had a colleague who was white that had a baby a week before. I’m saying maybe six or seven days before and her spouse was allowed back there. They took pictures. They were hugging. They had the full show. That golden hour was just all about family. All about loving, kind of the traditional picture you think of when you think of delivery versus my situation where there were all these restrictions. I felt alone. I was already scared. And she and I had babies literally days apart, nothing had changed. The protocols were the same, but me and her had two completely different experiences and we have the same OB GYN and we went to the same hospital.
Jackie:
So essentially the same healthcare, right?
Nacole:
The exact same healthcare, but two different things. And my husband, you know, my husband’s like, I’m trying to think, I’m honestly trying to figure out what’s going on with my husband. You know, he says this is race-related right. And I said, no, you know, they know me, you know, no, I don’t think it’s that. But then like a couple of weeks later, I just kept being treated like that more and more. And I was like, this has to be it because I’m not understanding what else is going on. I’m asking general questions. No one calls me back. I don’t feel like anyone cares about what’s going on. No one asked me about the postpartum survey about postpartum in general. Like I was like, I know what you have to ask me before I get discharged. None of that was asked, nobody checked my car seat to make sure my kid was okay. Like, it was just like good luck. I hope all is okay with you. But luckily I know this stuff, but for another person…
Jackie:
For people that don’t know, and it’s their first baby and that’s horrifying.
Nacole:
It’s horrifying. And it was just like, I’m glad I have the background to know, you know, what’s an emergency and what’s not, but it was like no one cared. And to them, maybe, you know, I was being dramatic, but it was like, you know, I’m also a medical professional, so I don’t want to go around throwing the R word racist at everyone that, you know, doesn’t do what I say, but I felt like there was a racial aspect of how I was being treated for sure. Because, you know, I’m a nurse, once you burn a nurse, like they’re not really, they’re not receptive or extra nice after the fact. So I don’t want to be like talking to the charge nursing and then everyone hates my guts and then they’re really not going to do anything then. So it was like very hard. Yeah.
Jackie:
So it was an uncomfortable environment when you’re already feeling vulnerable and uncomfortable.
Nacole:
Right. So I was just like, just keep it chill. You know, you don’t want to make anybody mad and they, you know, definitely not check on you. So I was like, let’s just be calm. Let’s just get out of here.
Jackie:
So with those experiences as a patient, can you speak a little bit to your experiences as a healthcare provider and a healthcare professional?
Nacole:
In terms of me being a African-American female in working, I don’t see a lot of people that are mirrors or images of me. I work for a really large organization here in central Florida. And as far as people of color goes, we’re very, very few and far between. So to me, that kind of leads to people not really understanding my perspectives when it comes to what I see and what’s happening. For example, a lot of times I’ll get a report and they’re like, Oh, this is a, I don’t know what’s wrong with him, but you know, he’s clearly on drugs and, you know, I think he’s on drugs and this is why I think that, and it’s like, okay, when I go to talk to him, he’s like, no, I’m not on drugs. I just happen to be homeless. You know? And I have these injections marks, because I was on drugs, but I’m not anymore. And I don’t know why you guys keep charting that I’m a drug user. I’m not a drug user now. And it’s like, there’s a weird undertone with a lot of people of color when they seek medical attention. Because their first thing is that if they’re non-compliant or their background isn’t quote unquote, legit, something else is going on. And I don’t think that’s very good, but honestly, it happens all the time. Oh, she’s not, she’s you know, a 20 year old, black female she’s non-compliant, she comes in here all the time with DK. And then when you talk to her, she’s like, you know, insulin is very expensive. I’ve been here multiple times, but I’m trying to, you know, save my money to get my insulin. I’m sorry, I’m here.
Nacole:
So instead of viewing it as someone who’s non-compliant, and they don’t care about their health, there’s a person who understands that this is a bad issue that they’re having, but they don’t have the funds. So maybe a social worker needs to be involved instead of assuming someone just doesn’t want to take care of themselves.
Jackie:
And is seen as noncompliant.
Nacole:
Right. But I see that happens in a lot of, especially black people, that when they seek healthcare, there’s a weird, like connotation to their actions. And it’s just like, I even see that. And I work at an organization it’s like, no one says it. No one’s going to say, you know, Hey, I’m a racist and Hey, you know, I have all these biases from my past, but they definitely bleed into how they see experiences and in how they manage certain patients.
Jackie:
For sure. Do you, have you been treated differently as a provider in terms of race? Like from your coworkers?
Nacole:
From coworkers? Not really. Once in a while, you get a stereotypical, like angry black woman, weird dynamic that’s going on, or you’re trying to advocate and they’re like, Hey, like calm down. And you’re like, I am calm. I am calm. Why would think I’m not calm? Well, you know, it just shouldn’t like, give him like an attitude.
Jackie:
I mean, that might be a female thing too.
Nacole:
Yeah, exactly.
Jackie:
You’re too emotional.
Nacole:
So it’s like where it’s coming from. And that’s why, I never label anyone as anything, because you don’t know their intentions and I’m not going to assume that that’s your intention, but that’s kind of few and far between. It tends to happen more with a patient and their family members not liking who I am as anAfrican-American female. It throws them off. And you know, again, it’s female. So there’s like this weird thing. Like I don’t, you know, females don’t know what they’re talking about. Like, where’s your manager? Like, where’s your doctor? That dynamic. Who is above you, who’s above you? Because I don’t, even if I don’t start talking, I’ve heard them say, who are you yet? No, where’s the doctor? Like, I couldn’t be a doctor first of all. And then second of all, like, I don’t like who you are as a package deal. So I’m not gonna really entertain whatever you’re saying. And that happens every now and then. I mean, I’m from the South. It’s Florida. Let’s be real. It’s going to happen. But again, that’s few and far between. Have you seen anything where you’ve worked at up north?
Jackie:
So I would say I, the hospital that I work in is in the suburbs, north of Boston. And our demographic is primarily Caucasian and white. We occasionally get Hispanic or African-American patients. So I can’t say that the care we deliver, I haven’t noticed anything like that. And I feel like I’m unfortunately a little bit isolated, you know, I read about things. But I feel like I don’t fully grasp it. And I also think, you know, being a white female, I’m never going to fully understand. So I want to talk about an article that I recently read with some med students at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine. They decided to write a new oath, a new Hippocratic oath that addresses racial injustice and how they are going to change that within healthcare. Do you think that nurses should take a kind of like an oath?
Nacole:
I think so. I mean, this pandemic has really shown that it’s hitting, you know, minority populations like crazy. I mean, my son’s teacher, she just had two relatives die of COVID and she’s like, I just don’t understand why it’s hitting our community so badly. And I was walking around and some other healthcare provider mentioned that, Oh, what’s positive noncompliance. Cause you know, if they have uncontrolled diabetes, uncontrolled heart disease, this, this, this, this can happen. I said, so you think that the pandemic is wrecking these communities and particularly African-American communities because we are all noncompliant? Do you honestly believe that? Like I know that there’s a level to that. There’s an aspect of that, but I just feel like they weren’t getting the proper healthcare that they need.
Jackie:
So there’s that non-compliant thing again. They can’t afford their medications. They can’t afford to go see their doctor. And why, why is that?
Nacole:
And I had someone tell me…They said, I don’t come here because you guys treat me like trash. I was like, what? I said, what do you mean? He’s like, every time I come here, you don’t listen to me. You ask me questions. Then when I finally look at my chart, you write stuff that’s not true. And it’s like, Oh, I’m sorry. He’s like, so this is why I don’t come here unless I absolutely have to. Because my interaction with you guys are very, very bad for me. And I was like, Oh, well, I understand why I don’t see you unless it’s an emergency because you feel like your voice isn’t being heard. So it’s like, that’s an aspect too. If communities have negative interactions with an organization that happens to provide healthcare, and they’re the only one that provides healthcare, they’re not going to come unless it’s an emergency. And that emergency might be too late to fix anything too late. I mean, I wouldn’t go to the doctor that was, you know, treating me like trash. But if he’s the only one in town, it’s like, you have to kind of weigh that. But I’ve had people come in and be like, I’ve been sick for a month, but I don’t like talking to you guys because you don’t listen. So I’m only here because I’m gasping for breath. Cause I’m about to die. I’m about to die.
Jackie:
And so those are your options. Don’t seek care or wait and see what happens.
Nacole:
So I feel like maybe the oath is great for medical professionals and nurses, since we all are kind of advocating for the same thing, hopefully.
Jackie:
How do you think that healthcare organizations can address racial injustice?
Nacole:
I feel like there needs to be a conversation about it because oftentimes the conversation is only when something happens or after something happens. Racial injustice in general, it’s very, very reactive. I feel like if you want to help the community, educate beforehand, provide as much education as you can because it occurring after the fact you’ve already ruined that line of communication. Like when I talked to someone and they have a legitimate issue with me, I try to sit down and talk about it right then. Like kind of what’s going on? You know, here’s how I felt. How did you feel about it and just kind of hit it head on, but kind of walking around tippy-toeing eggshells. Like I’m not going to bring it up unless I absolutely have to, after something happens to me, that doesn’t resolve anything.
Jackie:
No. And I think having open lines of communication and transparency is key in fixing those relationships. And, you know, throwing a compliance training at us or, you know, those trainings that we have to do every year for racism, diversity, things like that. Those aren’t, they’re not really educational. We’re all clicking through them. I think, you know, really kind of like getting into the nitty gritty is how things are going to change. But I think people are scared right now.
Nacole:
Any sort of training in your nursing program about this?
Jackie:
No.
Nacole:
Me neither. I was just reflecting back. I don’t remember anything regarding …
Jackie:
Maybe a little bit. I mean, you know, like that side in a PowerPoint of about cultural differences, but you know, maybe touched on three different cultures and, and as a nurse, you know, there are so many complexities across the board with different cultures, different religions. I mean, it’s endless really, and not enough education is done.
Nacole:
I mean, I just got information from my employer about transgender kind of education. And I had no idea, like if you aren’t given the information, you legitimately don’t know. So like pronouns and things like that and how to address them as far as like typing in your chart and things like that. I didn’t know anything about that. So I feel like, yeah, even at a minimum education is necessary.
Jackie:
Definitely. And I think ignorance comes out of not being educated. And the only thing I can say being kinda white female in this profession is to ask questions. And I might ask things that sound silly or sound ignorant, but at the end of the conversation, I likely took something away from that I can use in my practice. Not only my practice, but in my life.
Nacole:
You need to help people. I don’t think it’s, you know, a contest of who can be the most compassionate and you know, who could be the best social justice warrior. We’re just people trying to help people.
Jackie:
So that was a great conversation about kind of the racial injustices within healthcare. And we touched upon something that I’d like to dive into a little bit, and that is being a female in healthcare. And have you had any experiences being treated differently?
Nacole:
Oh yeah. It’s just, I don’t know. But you know, I work with men and women at my job, obviously, but when there’s issues, I feel like I definitely get treated differently. I feel like I don’t get taken as seriously. Like if I say something and then a male says the exact same thing, what they say has more weight, even though we said the exact same thing, and I don’t understand where that comes from. And then just looking at them like, are you serious right now? Like, did no one else see what just happened here? Am I the only one here that just saw this? Even nurses give report to other nurses who happen to be male, they could say the exact same thing. This patient’s blood pressure’s low. And they’re like, okay. And then their male counterpart says it. And then people react.
Nacole:
And it’s like, why, why when he says it, do you take it more seriously? But when the female nurse said it, you just looked at her like, so? And I don’t think people see how they respond differently based on what gender they’re looking at. Even pay wise I’ve seen it. You know, I don’t ask people how much money they made, you know, how much money they get paid. I feel like it’s a very rude thing to ask, but you stumble upon, you know, conversations, casual conversations. And I find out someone that has the same experience as me is getting paid way more money. And the only difference is that he’s a male. And I remember bringing it up to one of my friends and you know, she was like, Oh, well maybe you didn’t negotiate properly. And I said, no offense, but you know, I have an MBA and an MSN.
Jackie:
Why do you have to negotiate? My resume speaks for itself.
Nacole:
I’m able to advocate for myself. And it’s like, you get immediately defensive, but it’s like, why is it always the female’s fault for not getting what she wanted? But the men always get what they want without in my opinion sometime not even trying.
Jackie:
I was going to say they don’t even have to ask for it.
Nacole:
It’s just a weird dynamic that I’ve seen throughout healthcare. And I’ve even talked to female doctors. And when they get on the phone, another doctor assumes they’re a nurse, like, excuse me? Ma’am who are you? And she was like, my name is Dr. So-and-So. Oh, I didn’t know you were a doctor. Well, why did you assume that she had to be a nurse? Because she was female. It’s like, there’s a weird culture in Florida that I’ve noticed. I don’t know how about your area?
Jackie:
I would say it’s across the board. I’ve seen, I mean, just like talking about a male saying something and then a female saying something in the healthcare setting, if I could page your doctor three times and they won’t respond. But if my male counterpart pages a doctor, Oh, they got a call right back.
Nacole:
Isn’t that crazy?
Jackie:
It is crazy. And I also think in nursing there’s this…I mean, nurses are primarily women. So there’s just, and were very compassionate, nurses especially. Women are compassionate. So there’s this like weird relationship of that. We’re like emotional, compassionate and that we can’t be capable of anything else.
Nacole:
Yeah. And it’s like, the profession is full of women. So I was under the assumption, like now this going to happen here because you know, we’re all females. You know, they’re going to respect us because you know, this is our thing. This is our jam. Then when you go to work, like I had people being dismissive of me. And it’s just like you say one thing, your male counterpart says another, and it’s a different response. They take them more seriously. And it’s like, it weighs on you a little bit. And you know, it just changes how you see the world sometimes because you’re like, no one’s ever going to take me seriously. I mean, I can’t change my gender. I am who I am.
Jackie:
It changes your relationships with the people you work with, because I feel like you kind of have to yell and get angry.
Nacole:
Yeah, you do.
Jackie:
And have to advocate to get anything done. And then you’re seen as you’re so emotional.
Nacole:
Calm down, relax.
Jackie:
When you’re just being firm and you’re being an advocate. So I definitely, I see that up here for sure.
Nacole:
And it’s like, do you think I want to call you at two o’clock in the morning? I’d rather not, but I’m advocating for my patients. So why don’t you take what I’m saying seriously? And then you’ll see the same situation play itself out like a week later. And the response with the male presenting the information is completely different. And then when you bring it up to someone they’re like, I don’t think that’s true. It’s like, so what was it? Well, I didn’t, she was being emotional. And she was like, Oh, she was emotional. Why do you think she’s emotional? Like a lot of people use the word quote, unquote, emotional a lot when a female is just trying to state facts and they don’t like the facts being presented, in my opinion.
Jackie:
I agree completely.
Nacole:
Or if they’re very solid and firm on their thought process, you’re being quote unquote difficult.
Jackie:
Exactly.
Nacole:
I remember someone said I was being difficult and I said, I’m just explaining to you the facts of the situation. There’s no emotion behind it at all. I’m very calm. Yeah. It’s just you’re really being really difficult. I said, you don’t like what I’m saying? Is that it?
Jackie:
You just don’t like what I’m saying.
Nacole:
You’re just adding adjectives unnecessarily, but I’m not going to change my thought process, but sure. Okay. So I feel like as a female, you’re always going to be dealing with that part, like emotional and you’re so compassionate and it’s just like you’re letting yourself get riled up. And it’s like, would you rather me not care?
Jackie:
Nacole, what would you say are some of your fears in terms of healthcare and nursing for the future?
Nacole:
The fear is that we’re going to be losing a lot of really, really good people. I see us trying to…This whole patient ratio thing is really kind of hot and heavy. I don’t know how you guys do on your COVID unit, but now some organizations are doing this thing where the ICU nurse has three or four patients instead of two patients and then a PCU nurse as a helper.
Jackie:
Yep.
Nacole:
It’s called Team Nursing. I had never heard of that. And I was like, whatiIs that about? Is that cheaper? Cause it doesn’t seem cheaper in my head.
Jackie:
It’s scary, I could tell you that.
Nacole:
How can ICU nurse have four patients and these aren’t like four like bi-pap, these are like CRRT, ventilator, ventilator, code. Cool. What?? So the future is a little scary. I hope that after we, you know, beat the pandemic situation, we reevaluate these patient ratios and we kind of get back to what we were doing before, because you cannot keep stretching nurses. You cannot keep stretching them. And I feel like they’re acclimating, they’re doing fairly okay. But like they’re leaving too. So clearly not that well.
Jackie:
I think that that’s going to have to be addressed after we get this pandemic under control. A hundred percent. I think there is going to be a mass exodus, like you mentioned earlier. And I mean, we just need to be treated better and be valued for what we have to offer and our knowledge base. Nacole, have you had any silver linings throughout this time?
Nacole:
Oh yes. Initially the homeschooling idea was terrifying to me because I don’t know, I’m not a teacher and I have no patience, but it’s been a really fun experience. You know, I’ve got to see my son make achievements in his class that I would never see. Like usually, you know, he gets on a bus, he gets off the bus. It’s kind of, how was your day? It was good. You look at the sheet the teacher sends and you kind of hope everything’s going well, but you never see the milestones versus now I get to see him like doing PE, jumping around. I get to see his teacher like Monday through Friday. And I get to be more involved in that kind of educational process. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I’m like, this is more work for me. I’m stressed out. But most of the time I love it.
Nacole:
Me and my husband have got a little closer too, because you know, you’re like, you know, parenting in close quarters, you lay on top of each other. So we’ve been married for like, I don’t know, over a freaking decade, but even with the pandemic, you know, he’s mentioned things I’ve never heard before. And I’m like, what thing? He’s like, I’ve always loved this. Or like when I was a kid, I did this.
Jackie:
It’s like you’re learning new things about each other.
Nacole:
Yeah. It’s like, you’re dating and you’re figuring out like, you know, it was like, who are you? I don’t know who you are, but I’m loving who you are. So that was fun. What about you?
Jackie:
I would say just spending more time with family and not, you know, go to restaurants, you know, we can’t really do that as much. So, you know, I’ve had some really nice relaxing family dinners and you know, just kind of sitting with each other. So it’s been, I would say, refreshing.
Nacole:
Do you feel closer since you are in close quarters and the whole pandemic thing is kind of spiraling.
Jackie:
Definitely. I mean, we have our moments, me and my fiance. We definitely have our moments. It’s hard and it’s challenging, but I think on the other end of this, we’ll be so much stronger because of it.
Nacole:
That’s so true. I tell my husband, like, he’s like the world’s imploding around us. I’m like, yeah, but we have our little bubble. We’re in our little bubble, have the kids and it’s just like, you know, at least we have that support system because there are some people that are in quarantine or, you know, going through a way tougher time by themselves, for sure.
Jackie:
Yes. Yeah. Definitely grateful for the support system that I have. Nacole, I want to thank you for your time today. I always love chatting with you.
Nacole:
Aw, thank you so much. This was so much fun.
Jackie:
We tackled some big issues in healthcare.
Nacole:
It was like talking to a friend. It was so seamless. I love it. You’re amazing.
Jackie:
You’re amazing.
Nacole:
Thank you.
Nacole:
Thanks for listening to Shift Talk. This podcast is brought to you by Shift, the new community for nurses ready to make a change. Shift is sponsored by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. The views expressed in this podcast are of the guests and hosts only, and do not reflect the views of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. To learn more about our guest. Hey, today, that’s me. And to hear more nurses talk about the important issues we’re facing right now, visit our website shiftnursing.com and please subscribe, rate and review Shift Talk wherever you get your audio content from. Until next time, stay safe and keep being awesome.
